Nov 4 2009, 4:59PM
It's About the Money, Stupid
Contrary to what we're so often told, American students are not bad at math and science.The John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development published a study not long ago that concluded that, contrary to fears expressed by educators and potential employers, American students have not wavered in their interest in science and math over the past 30 years. But, the study also found that many of the highest performing students were choosing non-science and math careers, the reason being, of course, a lack of opportunity and growth in those fields.
Basic economics tells us that human beings tend to follow the money. In the late 1990s, the dot com boom sent many very smart and hard working youngsters in the direction of computer science--at MIT, the famous "Course 6" (electrical engineering and computer science) was the hottest offering on campus. And MIT was not alone--enrollments soared in programs across the country. But with the post dot com bomb climate for computer geeks not nearly as sunny, these ultra-smart and eager hordes are looking elsewhere.
Whining and hand wringing over the state of science and math education in this country will have little impact if the jobs for scientists, engineers and mathematicians remain so uncertain, and so readily outsourced or filled by visa holders from abroad. Young Americans are not nearly so lazy or stupid as many pundits make them out to be--the best and the brightest will turn to math and science only if and when it pays to do so.
Photo Credit: Flickr User woodleywonderworks
Ellen Ruppel Shell
Thank you for breaking an assumption which has prevailed in the public discourse for a long time now. Everyone seems to assume that young Americans like myself who go into math, science, or engineering have glorious job prospects ahead of them, and pushing more students into these will solve the unemployment issues of young people in general.
The truth is, I'm starting to think that those who went into business, finance, and law (certainly those who are good at it) have more job stability, opportunities for achievement and advancement, and probably pay as well. Meanwhile, I feel like I could be laid off at any moment by the very department the business majors work in!
This attitude is especially prevalent and frustrating among older Americans because they assume that since they were successful and prosperous in math and science fields, the only reason younger Americans are failing to pursue these fields is because they are lazy and ill-disciplined. They fail to consider that global scale competition for jobs and imported visa holders combined with a devastated economy and companies which are much quicker to lay off means that the reputation of science and engineering fields have suffered a great deal.
I wonder how many former engineers, who tired of second-class treatment and salaries in the workplace and found greater autonomy, respect and remuneration in business management, will provide this hard-fought lesson to their college-bound children?
You hit the nail on the head. But I have no illusions that this trend is not hard-wired into Corporate America. And as long as we treat our engineers as working stiffs with little business acumen and perceiving their contribution as secondary to the "instincts" that manage top-of-the-house decision making, then I see no real change to this process.
Incentives structures do not change easily.
I am in my 40's and agree with this short article.
I was an Applied Math major.
I also thought about pure math but, at the time thought, other than teaching/PHD, what could I do with that degree?
After college I started looking at actuarial positions (perfect for my major). However, after a few interviews, I soon realized I didn't want that career.
I went into commercial banking and met a lot of executives with an MBA.
I then got my MBA and ended up in the technology industry.
My advice - If you like math/science by all means major in them. About everyone I meet is impressed if they find out I was an applied math major - interviews, etc.
However, be sure you are realistic about the types of jobs available.
It would also be good to round out your "soft/people skills".
BTW - if you are mainly interested in making lots of money, a good combination is a math degree with either an MBA or JD degree. You could be a quant on wall st. or a securities lawyer.
I recently retired from a 30-year career in Information Technology as a systems analyst, programmer and database administrator. An article in the Denver Post not long ago stated that the number of engineering and computer-related majors in Colorado universities had reached a 30 year low. I was surprised; apparently 18 year old kids have a lot more common sense than I thought.
I/T has become a miserable way to make a living. Companies grudgingly pay a decent salary for hands-on techies but in return they own you. There are no boundaries and no respect for your personal life. You're supposed to be humbly grateful that your position hasn't been outsourced to India and in return be happily available at a moment's notice.
Computer development projects are notorious for never meeting deadlines so some management genius invented the "Agile" development methodology. It plays out in real life as "We don't need no stinking project schedules. We'll just grind out code till we've got enough to throw something into production with minimal testing, let the grunts work overtime next week to fix the problems we just created and then add another glorious accomplishment to the status report we send upstairs. Okay everybody, cancel any weekend plans you were foolish enough to make and scramble for child care if you have to."
The folks doing the actual work not only wind up feeling like high-tech flunkies, they don't even get the satisfaction of creating products they can be proud of.
This article is messed up. Looking at the comments above, they have misunderstood and taken it to a different degree.
Folks, its not that simple. There are four dimensions here.
1. The problem that everyone talks about (including top Univs, Microsoft, Google and IBM) is not the QUANTITY of Americans that go into the Sciences, its the QUALITY. When you compare the proficiency of American kids in the Sciences they rank at the bottom among Developed countries and lower than many developing countries.
This is important because Science teaches you how to think and be analytical. That is seriously lacking in America considering we elected Bush twice, still teach Creationism, have a junk Media and so on. You don't need to go into the Sciences as a profession after high school. Just learn to be a smart thinker. That will take you places.
2. Next, there are not many American science Univ graduates. This is blatantly viewed at our top schools today. These schools are merit based. Why then do they have 80% foreign students at the Grad level in the Sciences? Speaks to the QUALITY of American science education. Obviously, if you weren't trained properly in the sciences in high school, you are not going to pursue it as a career.
3. There ARE jobs for people with advanced science degrees but its a vastly competitive field coz the roles are not that many. Blaming the visas is just plain dumb. If you do not hire them here, they will be poached by numerous other countries or they will go back to where they came from and do just fine. Its a loss for us here in the USA.
4. Last, please don't use computer sw programmers as an example of these 'advanced sciences'. SW developers are dime a dozen and your grandma can become one in 2 months if she buys a book on it. The field has matured and they are no different than electricians and car mechanics. Obviously, its a shitty job because you are doing behind the scenes work in most companies, unless of course, if you are in a SW company. There are a few SW developers doing cutting edge work but most are of the dead beat variety.
So, in conclusion, American science education is seriously lacking. It is important for all Americans independent of whether they go on to make it their profession. Don't try to use IT workers as an example as they are a small piece of the big Science profession pile, albeit the shittiest piece.
As an undergraduate, I was unaware that majoring in math would not actually result in a high-paying salary. Neither was I aware, as a graduate student in engineering, that I was still not on that path. Today, as a decently-paid engineer, I look at my peers who have less education and probably less aptitude who are making twice my salary, and wonder what I did wrong.
Unforunately, there is not a direct relationship between the most intellectually challenging careers and higher compensation. As much as I enjoy my job, I also lament that I probably could be making a lot more money if I had chosen another field. C'est la vie. I suppose that's one thing we can learn from Iran, who values engineers as highly as the U.S. values doctors.
BTW, The article is completely short sighted to use the current recession, a very small event in the big time scale, as an example to say that there are numerous unemployed with science degrees. Go look at the data. We are seeing the worst unemployment in nearly a century.
So who got us into the current economic fix, Max. Was it the low quality US tech and IT workers ? Or was it our brilliant manager class ?
It is common enough to outsource technical work offshore, when we would probably do better to send our management jobs to India.
Ok tcrosse, you are taking it into a whole new dimension now. What got us into this mess was the lax regulations that this country has had for a decade now. Humans are fundamentally greedy. There is no point blaming the wall st honchos for the mess when we should have known that they will try to do so. there should have been tight regulations against it.
Dont really follow why you think Mgt jobs should go to India.
This reminds of a related problem that I have with all of this. There are folks who misunderstand the problem as "these foreigners are stealing our jobs". That wastes a lot of energy in the wrong direction. Those foreigners are sought after for whatever reason by the companies here. We need to understand why that is happening and plug any holes if needed. There are two kinds. 1. The mad scientists who are crazy smart and add a lot of value. (wasn't one of google founders Russian?) 2. the dime a dozen software developers. now there are a lot of h1b sw developers. Here I really do think that most americans with college degrees can't stand the banal dead end job of being a sw developer. I have worked in enough env to observe this. So maybe the H1b folks are really filling a need.
We don't know the real reasons, but hey, its legal and merit based. The companies cannot pay h1bs less than citizens. They why do the companies hire them? it must solve some need for them.
I do know one thing. Its not the dead end IT jobs that will take this country to the next frontier. they are as boring as back office workers. leave that alone and lets focus on actual professions that will create value.
BTW, I noticed that the author has a BA degree. How does that qualify her to write on this topic? I am stumped. I would trust it more if she had a science degree herself.
My undergraduate degree is in biology, focusing on genetics.
Max wrote: "Here I really do think that most americans with college degrees can't stand the banal dead end job of being a sw developer."
Max, I've been a software developer for 20 years and can only think of a few more creative careers, such as rock star or movie producer. I've dabbled in writing legal briefs - software is more creative. In HS I wanted to be an airline pilot (or truck driver like "BJ and the Bear") - not much difference between the two now - i would probably have fallen asleep at the wheel by now. I don't know why, of all jobs, you think "sw developer" is banal and dead end. What jobs are not banal and not dead end, in your view?
If you don't want to use software development as an example fine; what is a math/science/engineering field which has good security, pay, and opportunities for advancement?
My daughter wanted a technical career. Seeing the offshoring that was occuring in the EE and CS fields, she chose Civil Engineering/Architecture, reasoning that these jobs would more likely stay in the U.S. She graduated with BS/MS in civil engineering from a top school in May 2009 with top GPA. So far she cannot find a job.
public linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniecberry - any employers need a top candidate? If not please quit lobbying congress that we need more foreign engineers!
What message does this send to the HS grads who are no trying to choose a major? What is the message when we see attorneys getting $1 million of a $3 million judgment in one case? Isn't the message that the U.S. values attorneys more than it does tech workers? The PhD post-grads at UC are earning around $30k - where does that lead for most of them?
Ellen nailed it. The H-1b and related visas are perversions of the free market. They destroy the supply/demand force that would otherwise make the tech field attractive to top HS grads. Conservatives at least should oppose such market interference by goverment, but Congressional support for H-1b - and free trade agreements that facilitate offshoring - is supported unanomously by democrat and republican.